How to Build a College List That Actually Makes Sense - Episode 022

Episode: How to Build a College List That Actually Makes Sense
Guest: Dr. Steven Antonoff
Host: Chris Bell

Opening Monologue

Chris Bell:
At first, it sounds simple: make a list of colleges you will apply to.

But then the questions start. Which colleges go on the list? Some people say safety, target, reach. Others say just follow the rankings until you get into one.

You’ve got social media and constant advice, and they all seem to raise the stakes. The process starts to feel more urgent than it actually is.

The reality is calmer and more human than that.

College fit is not a single answer waiting to be discovered. It’s a thoughtful process that unfolds over time. So tonight, we purposely slow this down. No checklist or formula, but real talk about what building a list of colleges that work for you actually means.

To help with that conversation, I’m joined by someone who has spent decades thinking deeply about this exact question. Steve Antonoff has helped generations of students and families build college lists that make sense for who they are.

Show Introduction

Announcer:
It’s The College Talk Show. Tonight: How to Build a College List That Actually Makes Sense, with special guest Dr. Steven Antonoff. And now, here’s your host, Chris Bell.

Guest Introduction

Chris Bell:
My guest tonight is Dr. Steven Antonoff.

Steve is an independent educational consultant, author, and one of the longtime thought leaders in our profession. He has spent decades working directly with students and families, and he’s known for a deeply student-centered approach to college planning: thoughtful, humane, and grounded in real understanding rather than anxiety or hype.

He’s also the author of College Finder, College Match, and A Student of Colleges.

Steve, you’re also a friend and a mentor. Thank you for joining me here tonight on The College Talk Show.

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
And I feel the same about you, Chris. I appreciate your getting college information out to those who need it. So thank you for what you’re doing.

Chris Bell:
My pleasure. Let’s get into it.

We’re talking about building college lists. When a student is just beginning to build a college list, what are the first things you want them to pay attention to?

Guest Interview

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
You know, what you’re really doing is constructing a group of schools, establishing a group of schools where you can be happy. You’re not etching the perfect wording for the Ten Commandments or anything of the sort, but rather you are creating a group of schools where you can thrive.

What I always feel, Chris, is when I start talking with a student about their college list, I don’t want to start with, “Where do you want to go to college?” I want to start with, “Who are you as a learner? Who are you as a person? Who are you as a community member?”

So I guess the place to start is self-observation, self-insight, asking questions such as: What academic environment will bring out the best in you? Do you need professors who know your name? Do you want structure? Do you thrive with independence? Are you looking for a campus that feels like a village, or a city, or a laboratory, or a launchpad, or a stage?

Those are the places, I think, where you can be most productive in starting to look for good-fit colleges.

Chris Bell:
Amazing.

Families sometimes hear the phrase “perfect match college.” What do you think they usually misunderstand when they approach this term?

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
The problem with that is the term “perfect.”

There is no perfection in college admission, as there is really no perfection in other parts of life. What there are are trade-offs and priorities and wise choices.

So I think when families say “the perfect college match,” they feel like they have to know the whole universe of colleges before they can begin to start. And I think that’s a mistake.

A good college search, in my mind, is not a hunt for perfection, but rather an exercise in what I might call intelligent compromise. And that’s what I think students ought to be thinking about as they try to reinterpret the term “perfect college match” into: Where can I be happy, and what are some good choices for me?

Chris Bell:
I’ve heard you talk in the past. You’ve long expressed skepticism about college rankings. What gets lost when families start their search with college rankings?

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
It’s such a good question, and I’m glad you asked.

What gets lost is that individual student. That’s what gets lost. What gets lost besides that individual student is a healthy, non-toxic college search.

I’m not against rankings, and I think it’s appropriate to use them as one source of information. But I am very much against using them as wisdom. They’re not wisdom. They are formulas. And formulas can measure lots of things. Mainly, it’s measuring what the ranking people want the rankings to measure.

I’ve sometimes argued, Chris, that we don’t rank churches. We rank everything else. We rank restaurants and toothbrushes and so forth and so on. But we don’t rank churches because we feel like, how can you compare religions? How can you compare large church edifices to smaller ones? How can you compare one pastor or rabbi or priest to another? There’s just too much complexity.

My point always is that there is the same amount of complexity in colleges. And so to try to rank them, even if you try to put all of the liberal arts and sciences together and all of the major national universities together, even if you do that, you’re still not really focusing on anything that is really helpful in terms of finding that place where that student is going to be able to thrive.

I encourage parents to read U.S. News, read some of the other lists. There are lists of value colleges. There are all kinds of lists. But just remember that these are, again, formulas. They’re not intended to help that individual student find that right college.

Chris Bell:
How do you help students translate who they are into search criteria that are actually useful?

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
Again, a profound question.

I think the most important thing here is to move students from vague adjectives to usable, measurable criteria.

For example, if a student says to me, “I want somewhere where I feel comfortable,” okay, that’s understandable, but it’s not yet actionable. It’s not measurable. So that student has to try to translate those feelings into things that they can actually research.

So does “comfortable” mean where professors are more accessible? If so, you can research that. Does “comfortable” mean being near a big city? Well, again, that’s measurable. Is the campus walkable? And so forth and so on.

What I think sometimes gets students in trouble in the search is that they’re looking for a college that’s “cool” or a college that’s “awesome.” Well, neither of those are measurable. So the student has to think carefully: What does “awesome” mean? What does “cool” mean?

And once they begin to say, “Well, awesome means big football games,” or “awesome means really being able to get involved with intramurals,” or if “awesome” means a great program in a particular subject or something like that, then you can really start to construct a good college list.

Another thing that I think of when you ask that question is I make the distinction between a smart student and a scholarly student. A high GPA is great, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the student loves ideas.

So when I’m talking to someone, regardless of what their GPA or SAT scores or ACT scores or anything else would be, what I’m wanting to know is how curious that student is, how self-propelled, how resilient, how excited by learning. Once I learn those things, then again, I’m in a territory of measurable things that I can research and find out about.

Chris Bell:
Steve, your books, your three books, you’ve been diligent about revising them. On my set here, I have the new version of College Finder right here. I’ve always appreciated your books, and I certainly have College Match as well as A Student of Colleges, both of which I’ve read cover to cover.

What has changed in the college list-building process over time?

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
Certainly one of the things that has changed is something we’ve already talked about, and that is that the landscape of college planning is much noisier. There are many more sources, including my sources, more opinions, more rankings, and so forth.

More deeply, what is occurring is that students are asking better questions. And so much of that is asking questions about what the students are like. Are they competitive or collaborative? How easy is it to connect with faculty? What is the social energy of the place?

I often think that it’s wise for a student to think about what is the glue that holds that school together. Is it beer? Is it after-school study groups? Is it football? What is it?

So I think one of the things that has changed is that students are more willing to acknowledge the student body itself as being an important part of their search.

If my books have done anything, my hope is that they’re helping students see variables that they had not considered before. Are students more pre-professional? There are lists in College Finder, for example, on good places for an introvert or good places for flip-flop wear.

Not that these lists are exclusive, or that there aren’t lots of places where an introvert can be happy, for example. My hope in putting the book forward is that students will go through and think, “Gosh, I didn’t really think about how I would fit in with the student body. I didn’t really think about the difference between a school that’s very exclusively liberal arts and sciences focused versus a school that is more career-focused.”

So I think what’s changed is that students are willing to look at more options. I think they’re willing to think about more variables. And to me, that’s a good thing.

Chris Bell:
I think that’s great advice. I also love this book. It’s entertaining. I don’t know if you meant it to be entertaining, but it’s hilarious.

Absolutely. “Expert’s Choice for Colleges for Hipsters,” I flipped to.

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
There you go.

Chris Bell:
“Colleges for Students Indifferent to Sports.” And there are hundreds. I mean, I don’t know how many lists you have in here, but it’s really fabulous.

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
Well, there are about 1,200, actually. But that hipster one was written really basically for you, Chris. So, absolutely.

Chris Bell:
Yep.

So, this list-building: if they’re building this list and it feels messy or unfinished, how should they interpret that?

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
I love the term “messy.” I haven’t thought of it in this context, but it’s really a good way to look at it.

If they think their list is messy or unfinished, they should interpret it as being normal. They should interpret it as: this is part of decision-making. Decision-making is rarely neat all of the time.

Sometimes families worry when their list is inconsistent. For example, if they have one smaller liberal arts and sciences school and then one very large state university. I think that’s a great sign. To me, it’s not a sign that the list is messy. It’s a sign that they’ve really thought about it, and they can see themselves in both environments. And then once they get their acceptances, they can further refine and further determine what schools are right for them.

So I think if you feel like your list is unfinished, slow down. Look at the questions that you’ve been asking. Look for patterns. Are there schools that keep surviving when you go over your list with your counselor? What keeps schools from being ruled out? What are the differences?

The last thing I can think of in responding to that question is that an unfinished list, it seems to me, is not a broken list. It’s a thinking list.

So confusion is not always a sign that you’re lost. Sometimes it is a sign that you actually are really paying attention.

Chris Bell:
Steve, we’re wrapping up. If people want to learn more from you, I will point them to your publications first and foremost: College Finder, College Match, and then, if they’re interested in the field, also A Student of Colleges.

Beyond that, if they wanted to talk to you or learn more, how would they get in touch with you?

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
I’m at schoolbuff.com. That’s B-U-F-F, like two Fs, like in Frank.

Chris Bell:
Thank you for your time. It was a rich conversation. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Steven Antonoff:
Thank you very much, Chris.

Chris Bell:
Stick around. We’ll be right back.

Sponsor Message

Sponsor Voiceover:
This episode is brought to you by Bell College Consulting. Visit bellcollegeconsulting.com to learn more.

Closing / Top Tips

Chris Bell:
That was an insightful, calm, deep conversation with Steve Antonoff. Isn’t he great?

Now, it’s the part of the show where I try to capture the key moments as a kind of summary of sorts. I call it Top Tips.

Voiceover:
Top Tips. Top Tips. Kind of a summary, but we call it Top Tips.

Chris Bell:
Top Tips for building a college list that actually makes sense.

Number seven: start with who you are. As a learner, as a person, as a community member. Who are you?

Number six: college rankings pay attention to variables that matter to them. They don’t pay attention to the individual student, and you should pay attention to variables that matter to you.

Number five: move from vague adjectives to usable, measurable criteria.

Number four: think about how you’d fit in with the student body. It’s an important part of the process.

Number three: when evaluating a college, ask: what is the glue that holds a school together? Is it beer, study groups, football, broomball?

Number two: an unfinished list is not a broken list. It’s a thinking list.

And the number one tip for building a college list that makes sense is: confusion is not always a sign that you’re lost. Sometimes it’s a sign that you’re paying attention.

There you have it. That’s The College Talk Show, all about building college lists. Thank you again to Steve Antonoff.

 

And remember, College is Awesome.